2021 Car Mod + In-Season Update!

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Cas Rietveld

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#21
I don't care what your excuse is, your driver keep finding the wall and solution is push to change of the physics? Because this is what it looks like.
I would like to quote @David O'Reilly here:

"You really need to develop the ability to argue your point without insulting people."
 
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#22
If it improves the drivability and racing, absolutely.
It is not. Ridiculous to change car midseason whatever reason this. We had four races to adapt, this is well enough to keep it.
If it improves the drivability and racing, absolutely.
Robin already said he will tell people what/how to adapt/change so you don't have to.
Or you could just drive and get on with it.
Oh, I am supposed to buy it now, right? You can believe whatever you want, just please keep from spreading nonsense to others.
 

Carlos Martín

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#23
I don't care what your excuse is, your driver keep finding the wall and solution is push to change of the physics? Because this is what it looks like.
Read carefully. It's not fixed because my driver complains, it's fixed because it's not an intended behaviour. The idea was brought by Robin before we even started driving at Silverstone. The complains are quite big about the car, you can check the FSR discord if you want.

As I said, try the car, comeback at me if you feel you need help to adapt yourself to the new tire changes (I say changes but it's literally one value). I will be kind to help you if you need it.
 
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Cas Rietveld

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#24
It is not. Ridiculous to change car midseason whatever reason this. We had four races to adapt, this is well enough to keep it.

Oh, I am supposed to buy it now, right? You can believe whatever you want, just please keep from spreading nonsense to others.
Like talking to a brick wall. If you don't buy my "nonsense" then please buy Carlos' because it's literally one value that has been changed. Come on man, you haven't even tried it yet and nor have I, but very capable people in my team have and they say it's better so I trust them 100%. And how can you say no to an improvement?

Would you say no to a teacher who was planning on giving you 2 extra points on your test because of an unintended mistake? You wouldn't apparently because you already adapted to your points.
 

Cameron Rodger

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#25
I know you all have differences of opinion. But please remain civil. People will complain if we change the car, people will complain if we didn’t. So we can only do what we think is in the best interest of the overall situation
 

Robin Pansar

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#26
Really? Why should I bother to compensate something I had never any complains? Care to explain that?
How many laps I should take again to fix your crap?
Cameron and others looked at the majority of feedback, not singular inputs, and made a judgement from that. Making a small improvement that will enhance the enjoyment for the majority of the users which in turn will affect motivation and atmosphere in the series.

Personally, if I was in total charge, I would likely not have done any mid-season changes since the issues aren't breaking the game, and it's something you can work around via setup.

You are free to not alter your setup to the advice you are given, but it's a loss of free lap time that only hurts you.
 
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#27
I just find it odd that half the grid in FSR complains or knows about the issue, but yet here we have 2 ACA drivers who have never felt or known about the issue.

Genuine question: Did you really never spin through T1, Copse or maggots etc? Never noticed a sudden loss of rear grip?
No I never did.

Is this related to a sometimes discussed RF2 exploit of sliding the rear (wholeley un realistic in F1) and am I failing to do it?
If so are we encouraging this exploit?

I also genuinely wonder how it didn't happen to anyone in the train fest called the WC Silverstone race.

My fear is that we end up with a rear that won't let go like the Codies F1 2010 game.

So can someone please explain to me and the half of the grid that didn't complain more about the "problem".
I never saw it discussed anywhere and really want to understand it????
This way we might be more accepting of the proposed changes.
 
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#28
My studies of competitor tyre wear in the results files shows front /rear wear deltas of up to 40-50%. EG front 28% rear 78%.
Is this due to drivers needing to use understeery setups to counter the "issue" or does it show "bulletproof" rears?
 

Victor Ivanov

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#29
you're missing the point. the tyre's grip has not been changed. The only thing changed is the deflection resistance (by 0.5%) which solely affects the problematic corners where at certain speed the rear tyres suddenly lose grip without any feedback to the driver. the fact that it's never happened to you doesn't necessarily mean the issue isn't there. it could be due to several factors but the most important one is the speed you're carrying through any of the mentioned corners and especially on the hard tyre in dirty air. considering the ama grid runs slower in q than the wc guys do on full tank i don't think this is a fair comparison. also i'm struggling to believe that none of the wc guys has ever lost the car due to this issue. i'm also not sure if you're familiar how mid season changes actually get approved.
 

Cas Rietveld

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#30
you're missing the point. the tyre's grip has not been changed. The only thing changed is the deflection resistance (by 0.5%) which solely affects the problematic corners where at certain speed the rear tyres suddenly lose grip without any feedback to the driver. the fact that it's never happened to you doesn't necessarily mean the issue isn't there. it could be due to several factors but the most important one is the speed you're carrying through any of the mentioned corners and especially on the hard tyre in dirty air. considering the ama grid runs slower in q than the wc guys do on full tank i don't think this is a fair comparison. also i'm struggling to believe that none of the wc guys has ever lost the car due to this issue. i'm also not sure if you're familiar how mid season changes actually get approved.
I said exactly this in more direct terms and suddenly I was attacking him and had to spare him in his cynicism etc. etc.

But in the end it's quite logical, slower times = below the limit. And when you don't get to the limit you will not lose the rear.
 

Cas Rietveld

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#31
No I never did.

Is this related to a sometimes discussed RF2 exploit of sliding the rear (wholeley un realistic in F1) and am I failing to do it?
If so are we encouraging this exploit?

I also genuinely wonder how it didn't happen to anyone in the train fest called the WC Silverstone race.

My fear is that we end up with a rear that won't let go like the Codies F1 2010 game.

So can someone please explain to me and the half of the grid that didn't complain more about the "problem".
I never saw it discussed anywhere and really want to understand it????
This way we might be more accepting of the proposed changes.
Good point, it's a bit 50/50 on using the exploit. If you look at the pole laps often there is a bit of sliding involved. But the change will not encourage this "exploit".

It will make sure that erratic behaviour of the rear tires on the limit in high speed corners will not happen anymore. Which is a good thing.

Why it didn't happen in the WC race? It surely happened to some drivers, but some were probably lucky enough to be able to catch it + WC are normally more skilled. And also good chance some were driving below their limit a little.

About the discussion, go back to the discussions after Zandvoort. Can't be missed.
 
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#32
you're missing the point. the tyre's grip has not been changed. The only thing changed is the deflection resistance (by 0.5%) which solely affects the problematic corners where at certain speed the rear tyres suddenly lose grip without any feedback to the driver. the fact that it's never happened to you doesn't necessarily mean the issue isn't there. it could be due to several factors but the most important one is the speed you're carrying through any of the mentioned corners and especially on the hard tyre in dirty air. considering the ama grid runs slower in q than the wc guys do on full tank i don't think this is a fair comparison. also i'm struggling to believe that none of the wc guys has ever lost the car due to this issue. i'm also not sure if you're familiar how mid season changes actually get approved.
Thank you Victor for taking the time to reply.
You say I am missing the point, I am just asking questions to better understand this. I am still however not clear on my third question:

"So can someone please explain to me and the half of the grid that didn't complain more about the "problem".
I never saw it discussed anywhere and really want to understand it????
This way we might be more accepting of the proposed changes."


It got a passing reference in paragraph 11 of Cameron Rogers original post here but it was far from thorough. Who complained about it? Where did they complain?

You suggest that I'm not familiar how mid season changes actually get approved. No I'm not so please tell us all?
Who tests and decides on such a change?

Your statement that: "considering the ama grid runs slower in q than the wc guys do on full tank i don't think this is a fair comparison"
I'm sure you didn't mean that AMA drivers are too slow to discover such things but at any rate your statement out by a long margin.
Pole in AMA was 1:29.254 P10 was 1:29.921
The opening laps on full fuel and options in WC were in the range 1:29.839-1:30. (leader) to 1:31.246 (P10).
So rather than being faster a pole sitting WC driver is 0.60 slower on full tanks than an AMA pole sitter (in quali) and a P10 WC driver is 1.4 sec slower than a P10 AMA qualifier.
It seems the pace difference is a lot less than you say. So you may want to re think that logic.

We are no closer to knowing why the WC grid (as far as I am aware) seemed to have no issues with it.
 
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Cas Rietveld

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#33
Thank you Victor for taking the time to reply.
Your statement that: "considering the ama grid runs slower in q than the wc guys do on full tank i don't think this is a fair comparison"
I'm sure you didn't mean that AMA drivers are too slow to discover such things but at any rate your statement out by a long margin.
Pole in AMA was 1:29.254 P10 was 1:29.921
The opening laps on full fuel and options in WC were in the range 1:29.839-1:30. (leader) to 1:31.246 (P10).
So rather than being faster a pole sitting WC driver is 0.60 slower on full tanks than an AMA pole sitter (in quali) and a P10 WC driver is 1.4 sec slower than a P10 AMA qualifier.
It seems the pace difference is a lot less than you say. So you may want to re think that logic.
Your logic is flawed,

Let's have a look at the AMA race pace on full tank. The AMA winner did on average around 31.3 Soft stint with a fastest lap of 30.7, which is also the overall FL(Clean air). The WC winner did average 30.1 in his first Stint. Already a whopping 1.2 seconds faster, also likely less RR because of a smaller grid. And then let's have a look at the FL in the race: A 1:28.9.. That is 1.8 seconds quicker than AMA.

So yes, the gap from AMA to WC is huge.

Oh, and btw. WC pole was 27.9 compared to a 29.2 in AMA. ;)
 

Victor Ivanov

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#35
P6 onwards in the opening stint of WC were all on HARD. I don't know how you can't see that as a factor. Pro fastest lap was 29.460 set by Tom Oldenmenger in lap 17 just after he refueled. That lap would have put him p4 in AMA. There is a significant gap in pace maybe not that visible at silverstone due to the flat out nature of the track but it is there in more technical circuits like Nurburgring. Go check the gaps there.
You should probably take the V1 tyres and go for a spin at Nazareth. Literally.
 
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#36
Your logic is flawed,

Let's have a look at the AMA race pace on full tank. The AMA winner did on average around 31.3 Soft stint with a fastest lap of 30.7, which is also the overall FL(Clean air). The WC winner did average 30.1 in his first Stint. Already a whopping 1.2 seconds faster, also likely less RR because of a smaller grid. And then let's have a look at the FL in the race: A 1:28.9.. That is 1.8 seconds quicker than AMA.

So yes, the gap from AMA to WC is huge.

Oh, and btw. WC pole was 27.9 compared to a 29.2 in AMA. ;)
Your logic is flawed,
Cas my response is to a direct comparison from Victor who stated that
"considering the ama grid runs slower in q than the wc guys do on full tank"
Those are the laps that I compared, Quali in AMA vs Full tanks in WC.
My comparison data proves he was wrong in that statement.
There is no flawed logic.

(Edit) Yes WC drivers are faster we know that.;):):cool:
(edit #2) yes there is a significant difference in pace.
 
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Cas Rietveld

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#37
Cas my response is to a direct comparison from Victor who stated that
"considering the ama grid runs slower in q than the wc guys do on full tank"
Those are the laps that I compared, Quali in AMA vs Full tanks in WC.
My comparison data proves he was wrong in that statement.
There is no flawed logic.
Well considering Dennis Jordan did a 28.9 on his first lap on his second soft stint... you're still wrong
 
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#38
Well considering Dennis Jordan did a 28.9 on his first lap on his second soft stint... you're still wrong
That's 28 laps into the race Cas, there is realroad evolution. If we want to compare apples with apples we compare quali pace with opening stint-simples.

But as much fun as its been arguing about the semantics of pace comparison is anybody going to address the main questions?

"So can someone please explain to me and the half of the grid that didn't complain more about the "problem".
I never saw it discussed anywhere and really want to understand it????
This way we might be more accepting of the proposed changes."


or is that less fun than trolling?
 

Victor Ivanov

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#39
the real road starts at 85% and it runs at x2 for the practice session. The average amount of laps per car per 20 mins session is roughly 8 which multiplied by at least 25 cars would mean something in the range of 400 laps of added rubber. Put the 4 Q laps on top and that's another 100 laps. considering the base is at 85% that literally means the track is fully rubbered for the last q attempt and if anything actually becomes slower later in the race due to the marbles accumulation. i'm not sure if you've noticed but a lot of the fastest laps are set in the first or second runs of the q session and very few people actually improve in the last run. so 28 laps into the race means nothing. the grip is same in lap 1, 21 or 51, if not worse.
 
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#40
"So can someone please explain to me and the half of the grid that didn't complain more about the "problem".
I never saw it discussed anywhere and really want to understand it????
This way we might be more accepting of the proposed changes."
I'm not even racing this year and I know about the problems with the car, the FSR discord has been full of people complaining about it for months. Multiple drivers even quit the league from various divisions because of problems with the car, it has hardly been some kind of underground unnoticed issue. Cameron explained all of this perfectly well in his main post at the beginning of this thread anyway.
 

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